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PIP Mandatory reconsideration advice
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1 day 7 hours ago #303267 by Geordielad880
PIP Mandatory reconsideration advice was created by Geordielad880
Hi, I'm wondering if anyone can give me some advice around mandatory reconsiderations. It's my first time posting a question, so please be nice 🙂
I recently completed my pip review, I had standard care, enhanced mobility, got given the same at review this time, despite my conditions deteriorating significantly, and my daily living needs are alot higher, as are my mobility needs, I don't agree with my points given for daily living activities, I scored 11 for daily living, and 24 for mobility, my highest score was a 3 for daily living, this is despite the fact I require my partner/carer to cook all my meals, help dress me, wash both my upper and lower body, I have hydrotherapy, physiotherapy home exercise and tens machine for a total of 12 hours per week and scored 0 for managing therapy and require assistance with all therapy, can't use toilet without someone physically helping me, my carer manages all my medications and finances, yet I score 0 for both, I outlined both in assessment and in forms that I have cognitive issues because of non epileptic seizures and have memory problems and have missed medication and taken it twice on a number of occasions, got into debt because I couldn't manage my bills myself.
The whole pip process has caused me significant deterioration in my mental health and physical health, I'm not coping at all, I had to ring crisis team because I'm just not coping, can't get any support from welfare rights, citizens advice have huge backlog and have been unhelpful in the past, i just don't know how I'm going to challenge the decision, I even thought about giving up totally as I have Uc50 to come shortly, I have been suicidal, scared to talk to GP because they will probably stop my pain medication which is limited already because of my liver cirrhosis, and my pain is excruciating and totally unbearable, my mandatory reconsideration has gone past deadline now, but apparently from advice from one company I contacted you can still do it within 13 months, if explanation is given.
I have got a copy of Assessors report, throughout the report it says no evidence of secondary mental health care, and stable mental health because meds haven't changed in last year, I have been on waiting list since June 24 for mental health support and my meds can't change as they can't increase my dose because of my liver cirrhosis and there are no other options available, said similar in regards to my chronic pain, no prescribed high level pain meds, because i'm not allowed!! It's infuriating, I provided pain management consultant letter which explains that in detail, I also told the Assessor aswell, how can I be penalised for not having adequate mental health support, it's not my fault I'm on waiting list, I sent records from NHS app showing gp concerns, pain management concerns etc about my mental health. I have had a private occupational health assessment paid for myself after the assessment, which is significantly different to the DWP report, would this help much for Mandatory reconsideration? They seem to have ignored everything pretty much evidence wise, even the fact I'm not under neurology for seizures anymore, well I'm discharged because they are non epileptic, and there is no treatment apart from mental health support etc.
My review form I sent off was over 100 pages long including evidence, and as you can probably tell from this message I'm not very good at concise descriptions of my issues for each descriptor, I find it so difficult and overwhelming knowing what exactly to write, how to put it etc, are there companies that can help, as in a paid service that anyone recommends?
I have literally got so overwhelmed by the whole process, not sleeping, not eating, seizures have gone through the roof, feel like I'm going to have a breakdown, that I just can't cope with the whole process and cancel everything, it's hard enough living with all my health conditions, never mind all this aswell, I'm petrified about the future, I currently would lose my daily living for pip, health element for UC, carer would lose her carers allowance, with the planned changes, I can't go anywhere unaccompanied, and couldn't manage my daily life without support at all, it's frightening!! I couldn't attend medical appointments, I have severe anxiety, depression and agoraphobia, and need support from my carer for all my appointments, which I have so many appointments.
I have liver cirrhosis, peripheral neuropathy, Disassociated Seizures, Postural hypotension, Autonomic Dysfunction, esophageal dysmotility, gastritis, esophageal varices, portal hypertension, muscle wastage, depression, anxiety and agoraphobia, hypermobility Ehlers Danlos syndrome, Widespread musculoskeletal problems, Chronic Pain through joints and muscles, dilated aorta, hepatic encephalopathy, and under investigation for rheumatoid arthritis and COPD, have sleep reversal because of liver cirrhosis, chronic fatigue.
Majority of my conditions are life limiting, chronic, and will only deteriorate, i honestly don't know what else I can do, they have so much medical evidence, I have explained how each condition affects my ability to perform daily living activities, the occupational therapy assessment report is so accurate compared to DWP one, maybe because they don't try and constantly trip you up, ignore things you say, make false assumptions, and it was done at home. They recommended adaptations in the report, my issue is I live with my parents as they have a bungalow, and my relationship with my dad is awful, hes had several strokes, and he won't allow me to have any adaptations, use pretty much any aides as they apparently get in the way, so my life is a constant struggle, with so many falls, and accidents, the OT recommend rehousing to adapted property, which I'm scared to do with pip planned changes, it would be a struggle financially now, never mind after the changes, how do DWP view the fact my parents won't allow me to have adaptations, and use the majority of aides? It's not exactly my fault.
I probably don't have that much time to live, was given a rough time of 5 years at liver cirrhosis diagnosis, and transplant is very unlikely because of my other conditions, and I should be able to spent time with my partner and family, the time I have left without having to go through all of this constantly, between my general suffering and medical conditions, and my numerous hospital appointments it's hard enough, it's almost like they are trying to kill as many disabled people as possible off, surely they know how this will affect people, there has to be thousands of people in similar situations to me, wrote to my MP, Stephen Timms, and the parliamentary committee, and several other MPs from other parties, just got standard responses, about how much funding they are putting into support for employment etc, and nobody would lose benefits who have significant needs, umm I think I prove that is completely untrue!!
Apologies for the very very long message, and advice, support, would be greatly appreciated, I know ultimately I don't currently have to challenge my decision as it hasn't changed, but it's not correct, I score my
I recently completed my pip review, I had standard care, enhanced mobility, got given the same at review this time, despite my conditions deteriorating significantly, and my daily living needs are alot higher, as are my mobility needs, I don't agree with my points given for daily living activities, I scored 11 for daily living, and 24 for mobility, my highest score was a 3 for daily living, this is despite the fact I require my partner/carer to cook all my meals, help dress me, wash both my upper and lower body, I have hydrotherapy, physiotherapy home exercise and tens machine for a total of 12 hours per week and scored 0 for managing therapy and require assistance with all therapy, can't use toilet without someone physically helping me, my carer manages all my medications and finances, yet I score 0 for both, I outlined both in assessment and in forms that I have cognitive issues because of non epileptic seizures and have memory problems and have missed medication and taken it twice on a number of occasions, got into debt because I couldn't manage my bills myself.
The whole pip process has caused me significant deterioration in my mental health and physical health, I'm not coping at all, I had to ring crisis team because I'm just not coping, can't get any support from welfare rights, citizens advice have huge backlog and have been unhelpful in the past, i just don't know how I'm going to challenge the decision, I even thought about giving up totally as I have Uc50 to come shortly, I have been suicidal, scared to talk to GP because they will probably stop my pain medication which is limited already because of my liver cirrhosis, and my pain is excruciating and totally unbearable, my mandatory reconsideration has gone past deadline now, but apparently from advice from one company I contacted you can still do it within 13 months, if explanation is given.
I have got a copy of Assessors report, throughout the report it says no evidence of secondary mental health care, and stable mental health because meds haven't changed in last year, I have been on waiting list since June 24 for mental health support and my meds can't change as they can't increase my dose because of my liver cirrhosis and there are no other options available, said similar in regards to my chronic pain, no prescribed high level pain meds, because i'm not allowed!! It's infuriating, I provided pain management consultant letter which explains that in detail, I also told the Assessor aswell, how can I be penalised for not having adequate mental health support, it's not my fault I'm on waiting list, I sent records from NHS app showing gp concerns, pain management concerns etc about my mental health. I have had a private occupational health assessment paid for myself after the assessment, which is significantly different to the DWP report, would this help much for Mandatory reconsideration? They seem to have ignored everything pretty much evidence wise, even the fact I'm not under neurology for seizures anymore, well I'm discharged because they are non epileptic, and there is no treatment apart from mental health support etc.
My review form I sent off was over 100 pages long including evidence, and as you can probably tell from this message I'm not very good at concise descriptions of my issues for each descriptor, I find it so difficult and overwhelming knowing what exactly to write, how to put it etc, are there companies that can help, as in a paid service that anyone recommends?
I have literally got so overwhelmed by the whole process, not sleeping, not eating, seizures have gone through the roof, feel like I'm going to have a breakdown, that I just can't cope with the whole process and cancel everything, it's hard enough living with all my health conditions, never mind all this aswell, I'm petrified about the future, I currently would lose my daily living for pip, health element for UC, carer would lose her carers allowance, with the planned changes, I can't go anywhere unaccompanied, and couldn't manage my daily life without support at all, it's frightening!! I couldn't attend medical appointments, I have severe anxiety, depression and agoraphobia, and need support from my carer for all my appointments, which I have so many appointments.
I have liver cirrhosis, peripheral neuropathy, Disassociated Seizures, Postural hypotension, Autonomic Dysfunction, esophageal dysmotility, gastritis, esophageal varices, portal hypertension, muscle wastage, depression, anxiety and agoraphobia, hypermobility Ehlers Danlos syndrome, Widespread musculoskeletal problems, Chronic Pain through joints and muscles, dilated aorta, hepatic encephalopathy, and under investigation for rheumatoid arthritis and COPD, have sleep reversal because of liver cirrhosis, chronic fatigue.
Majority of my conditions are life limiting, chronic, and will only deteriorate, i honestly don't know what else I can do, they have so much medical evidence, I have explained how each condition affects my ability to perform daily living activities, the occupational therapy assessment report is so accurate compared to DWP one, maybe because they don't try and constantly trip you up, ignore things you say, make false assumptions, and it was done at home. They recommended adaptations in the report, my issue is I live with my parents as they have a bungalow, and my relationship with my dad is awful, hes had several strokes, and he won't allow me to have any adaptations, use pretty much any aides as they apparently get in the way, so my life is a constant struggle, with so many falls, and accidents, the OT recommend rehousing to adapted property, which I'm scared to do with pip planned changes, it would be a struggle financially now, never mind after the changes, how do DWP view the fact my parents won't allow me to have adaptations, and use the majority of aides? It's not exactly my fault.
I probably don't have that much time to live, was given a rough time of 5 years at liver cirrhosis diagnosis, and transplant is very unlikely because of my other conditions, and I should be able to spent time with my partner and family, the time I have left without having to go through all of this constantly, between my general suffering and medical conditions, and my numerous hospital appointments it's hard enough, it's almost like they are trying to kill as many disabled people as possible off, surely they know how this will affect people, there has to be thousands of people in similar situations to me, wrote to my MP, Stephen Timms, and the parliamentary committee, and several other MPs from other parties, just got standard responses, about how much funding they are putting into support for employment etc, and nobody would lose benefits who have significant needs, umm I think I prove that is completely untrue!!
Apologies for the very very long message, and advice, support, would be greatly appreciated, I know ultimately I don't currently have to challenge my decision as it hasn't changed, but it's not correct, I score my
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20 hours 14 minutes ago #303306 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic PIP Mandatory reconsideration advice
Hi Geordielad880
Welcome to the forum.
In your post, you have said how fragile your mental health is at the moment, so the first thing you need to ask yourself is whether you are currently strong enough to put in for a Mandatory Reconsideration. As you have already missed the one-month deadline, you will have to put in a late MR and explain that, due to suicidal ideation and your other health issues, you were not well enough to do it immediately.
Should you use a firm to help you write your Mandatory Reconsideration? We don't recommend anyone do that as they are very expensive and, from what we have heard, many people don't have a good experience. There may be members on the forum who will recommend services they have used, but we cannot vouch for or endorse any companies or individuals mentioned.
I know you feel that you can't express yourself in the right way, but I disagree. You may have to tweak what you say to fit in with what the DWP wants, but don't put yourself down. No one knows you better than you, so remember you are the expert.
I know it feels as if the assessor didn't understand what you were trying to say. Well, they probably didn't, but it's not personal. They have to give their opinion, and their views don't align with yours. Your job is to show how they were mistaken. I want to warn you now that only 27% of claimants win their Mandatory Reconsiderations. I don't say that to depress you further, but you need to be realistic. It's a possibility that you will put in a lot of work and be unsuccessful, and then you would have to decide if you want to put in an Appeal. Claimants are far more successful in appeals, with approximately 67% of cases resulting in a favourable outcome.
Will your private occupational health assessment be useful for your MR. You can include it - but in reality, the DWP often ignores reports that have been paid for - because they assume that the health professional may have been tempted to write a more favourable report. I think this is rather insulting to the many private health professionals. I'm not saying you shouldn't use it - but it may not have the impact that you are hoping for.
Before you even start tackling this, you should look at the four Guides under PIP Appeals - because they will really help you put your MR together when you're ready. benefitsandwork.co.uk/guides-for-claimants/pip. You haven't said who your carer is - but hopefully someone can help you go through these - it really is worth it. You won't need to read every page and one of the most important is the guide "Best possible ways to challenge a PIP medical report". This has lots of example text which you can just use and drop in your specific conditions.
Multiple conditions: You have a lot of conditions, and I suspect that the assessor didn't know what half of them were, and they may not have looked them up. If you haven't already, I would create a table with three columns. In column one list the name of the condition. In the second column, list the description of the condition (taken from a reputable website like the NHS), and in column 3, list the main symptoms that you experience from that condition. Don't try to list every minute symptom. Before the table you put in one paragraph saying that you believe the assessor misunderstood some of your conditions so you have included it for information. You may not know, but the decision maker who gave you the award is not a medical person and so they rely on what the assessor puts in the report. The assessors very rarely include all people's medical conditions, so if you think major things have been excluded, you need to say so.
I have no idea what you wrote on your form or how you arranged the 100 pages of evidence, so please don't be offended by anything I say in the next couple of paragraphs, because none of it is said as a criticism.
Sending in lots of evidence doesn't guarantee a positive outcome as you have found. I know people who have sent in 100 pages or more of evidence and been awarded enhanced PIP for daily living and mobility and I know people who have received the same enhanced award with only 1 page. If you send in a lot of evidence, it must be clear which of the specific PIP questions it relates to - so the assessor doesn't have to work it out for themselves. This is especially true when you have multiple conditions. So for example - let's look at the question Preparing a Meal. (obviously I don't know what you wrote - but you said the assessor ignored this)
The assessor has misunderstood or ignored the reasons why I never cook a meal. This is because I can't do it safely, due to my frequent non epileptic seizures (see letter 1 from Dr X, dated 13.12 2022), the constant severe pain due to cirrhosis of the liver (see letter 2 from Dr Y, dated 08.12, 2013), peripheral neuropathy (see letter 3 from D J, dated ....). The symptoms from these three conditions mean that I cannot handle knives because of the danger of cutting myself, or dropping a pan when I suddenly collapse due to a seizure or the risk of burning myself due to a poor grip when removing something from the microwave.
Now by including your evidence that you sent in - that confirms conditions that you have and points out why it is a problem. Don't try and argue every condition for every question because it will overwhelm them and they won't make sense of it. In the example I gave you could always add a second paragraph saying that as well as the pain, poor grip and seizures your severe depression means you have no motivation. I know it's been suggested you may have adaptions, but you need to say that isn't possible because of your circumstances.
One of the things that you need to be aware of is the managing therapy. You would not have scored any points for that - unless you are doing something that has been prescribed for you to do by a medical professional. Like the physiotherapy. In which case you need to say what is you need to do and why you need the help of your carer.
Not managing your finance. You will have to link that to one of your conditions. It's not enough to say that you get confused. They will want to know which condition is giving you the cognitive issues. The seizures happen, and then you recover until the next one. Arguing that your depression makes it impossible to concentrate or causes you to act compulsively may improve your chances.
I don't know whether your carer wrote a letter - they can write one - just one side A4 in length keeping to the PIP criteria saying what they have observed and what they have to do for you. If your mother would be willing to write a letter saying that your home is too small to have any aids - then include one as well.
That's all I can think of at the moment. If you do decide to go for it - just tackle one question at a time. Do not call the assessor a liar - even if it is true. Use words such as "mistaken", "misunderstood" , 'ommitted" "forgot" "ignored" etc.
Now I know it's a lot to take in for you. If you want to find an organisation to help you, do so, but bear in mind it may not be as helpful as you hope. First priority is to get yourself to a place where you can cope. You are capable of doing this - you just need to believe in yourself.
If you have any further questions, come back and ask, and we will try to help.
BIS
Welcome to the forum.
In your post, you have said how fragile your mental health is at the moment, so the first thing you need to ask yourself is whether you are currently strong enough to put in for a Mandatory Reconsideration. As you have already missed the one-month deadline, you will have to put in a late MR and explain that, due to suicidal ideation and your other health issues, you were not well enough to do it immediately.
Should you use a firm to help you write your Mandatory Reconsideration? We don't recommend anyone do that as they are very expensive and, from what we have heard, many people don't have a good experience. There may be members on the forum who will recommend services they have used, but we cannot vouch for or endorse any companies or individuals mentioned.
I know you feel that you can't express yourself in the right way, but I disagree. You may have to tweak what you say to fit in with what the DWP wants, but don't put yourself down. No one knows you better than you, so remember you are the expert.
I know it feels as if the assessor didn't understand what you were trying to say. Well, they probably didn't, but it's not personal. They have to give their opinion, and their views don't align with yours. Your job is to show how they were mistaken. I want to warn you now that only 27% of claimants win their Mandatory Reconsiderations. I don't say that to depress you further, but you need to be realistic. It's a possibility that you will put in a lot of work and be unsuccessful, and then you would have to decide if you want to put in an Appeal. Claimants are far more successful in appeals, with approximately 67% of cases resulting in a favourable outcome.
Will your private occupational health assessment be useful for your MR. You can include it - but in reality, the DWP often ignores reports that have been paid for - because they assume that the health professional may have been tempted to write a more favourable report. I think this is rather insulting to the many private health professionals. I'm not saying you shouldn't use it - but it may not have the impact that you are hoping for.
Before you even start tackling this, you should look at the four Guides under PIP Appeals - because they will really help you put your MR together when you're ready. benefitsandwork.co.uk/guides-for-claimants/pip. You haven't said who your carer is - but hopefully someone can help you go through these - it really is worth it. You won't need to read every page and one of the most important is the guide "Best possible ways to challenge a PIP medical report". This has lots of example text which you can just use and drop in your specific conditions.
Multiple conditions: You have a lot of conditions, and I suspect that the assessor didn't know what half of them were, and they may not have looked them up. If you haven't already, I would create a table with three columns. In column one list the name of the condition. In the second column, list the description of the condition (taken from a reputable website like the NHS), and in column 3, list the main symptoms that you experience from that condition. Don't try to list every minute symptom. Before the table you put in one paragraph saying that you believe the assessor misunderstood some of your conditions so you have included it for information. You may not know, but the decision maker who gave you the award is not a medical person and so they rely on what the assessor puts in the report. The assessors very rarely include all people's medical conditions, so if you think major things have been excluded, you need to say so.
I have no idea what you wrote on your form or how you arranged the 100 pages of evidence, so please don't be offended by anything I say in the next couple of paragraphs, because none of it is said as a criticism.
Sending in lots of evidence doesn't guarantee a positive outcome as you have found. I know people who have sent in 100 pages or more of evidence and been awarded enhanced PIP for daily living and mobility and I know people who have received the same enhanced award with only 1 page. If you send in a lot of evidence, it must be clear which of the specific PIP questions it relates to - so the assessor doesn't have to work it out for themselves. This is especially true when you have multiple conditions. So for example - let's look at the question Preparing a Meal. (obviously I don't know what you wrote - but you said the assessor ignored this)
The assessor has misunderstood or ignored the reasons why I never cook a meal. This is because I can't do it safely, due to my frequent non epileptic seizures (see letter 1 from Dr X, dated 13.12 2022), the constant severe pain due to cirrhosis of the liver (see letter 2 from Dr Y, dated 08.12, 2013), peripheral neuropathy (see letter 3 from D J, dated ....). The symptoms from these three conditions mean that I cannot handle knives because of the danger of cutting myself, or dropping a pan when I suddenly collapse due to a seizure or the risk of burning myself due to a poor grip when removing something from the microwave.
Now by including your evidence that you sent in - that confirms conditions that you have and points out why it is a problem. Don't try and argue every condition for every question because it will overwhelm them and they won't make sense of it. In the example I gave you could always add a second paragraph saying that as well as the pain, poor grip and seizures your severe depression means you have no motivation. I know it's been suggested you may have adaptions, but you need to say that isn't possible because of your circumstances.
One of the things that you need to be aware of is the managing therapy. You would not have scored any points for that - unless you are doing something that has been prescribed for you to do by a medical professional. Like the physiotherapy. In which case you need to say what is you need to do and why you need the help of your carer.
Not managing your finance. You will have to link that to one of your conditions. It's not enough to say that you get confused. They will want to know which condition is giving you the cognitive issues. The seizures happen, and then you recover until the next one. Arguing that your depression makes it impossible to concentrate or causes you to act compulsively may improve your chances.
I don't know whether your carer wrote a letter - they can write one - just one side A4 in length keeping to the PIP criteria saying what they have observed and what they have to do for you. If your mother would be willing to write a letter saying that your home is too small to have any aids - then include one as well.
That's all I can think of at the moment. If you do decide to go for it - just tackle one question at a time. Do not call the assessor a liar - even if it is true. Use words such as "mistaken", "misunderstood" , 'ommitted" "forgot" "ignored" etc.
Now I know it's a lot to take in for you. If you want to find an organisation to help you, do so, but bear in mind it may not be as helpful as you hope. First priority is to get yourself to a place where you can cope. You are capable of doing this - you just need to believe in yourself.
If you have any further questions, come back and ask, and we will try to help.
BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: Geordielad880
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12 hours 5 minutes ago #303316 by Geordielad880
Replied by Geordielad880 on topic PIP Mandatory reconsideration advice
Thanks BIS for taking your time to explain all that, I understand things alot better now.
I really should of linked my evidence directly to each descriptor, which I didnt do, I thought the Decision maker had medical knowledge, you live and learn.
My occupational therapy assessment report is very detailed, and outlines all my conditions, and symptoms, and for each descriptor it outlines my problems, which conditions affect my ability to perform the task, and explains why, would I still be best doing the table as you described? Even though the report explains it far better than I probably could, it explains my living situation, and why I can't use most aides, and says I need rehoused.
My carer is my partner and carer, and she done a letter but looking back it probably wasn't great, and could be more targeted to each descriptor.
In terms of managing treatments and therapy, the physiotherapy exercises are through NHS, they have details of what I need to do, and I have explained that I need my carer to help me lie on exercise mat, and support me, and encourage me, and observe to make sure it's done correctly, and help me get up, and move me into the various different positions etc. I also have tens machine therapy which was suggested and documented in pain management consultant letter, sand with hot and cold therapy, and is hydrotherapy through NHS still classed as requiring assistance as my carer helps me get changed for the pool, and after the therapy aswell?
Mental health is the one I'm struggling with, as they insist it's stable as medication hasn't changed and no cmht input, I'm on waiting list for cmht, and medication can't be changed because of my liver cirrhosis, it's wrong to disregard my mental health struggles due to NHS waiting lists, I'm also waiting for Autism assessment and rheumatology assessment, they stated I passed security for assessment, answered questions without prompting, had no issues, no breathlessness, all incorrect, as my carer had written a list of my national insurance number, dates of appointments, conditions, medications, dosages, and my general security information, she did prompt me several times, not verbally, but by pointing and putting medical information in front of me, I lost my temper with the Assessor, and told her I was struggling to cope with the assessment, all of which happened after the recording stopped for a problem, but I recorded the whole assessment myself, and I was breathless at several points, it's pretty hard to assess that on speaker phone from a distance lol.
They keep saying in the report that I have no neurology input anymore, why would I? It's diagnosed and there is no treatment, so discharged now. No evidence of post ictal symptoms, which was documented from neurology, carers letter, my own account.
I am also getting a private physiotherapist assessment to assess me head to toe, and report in all my issues, how they affect daily living, future treatment plan, because NHS musculoskeletal is very poor, and getting private psychiatrist assessment as im not waiting any longer for mental health assessment, as I get no support, and 9 months I have waited so far for NHS.
I personally think it's not fair if they don't put much weight on private assessments, they are independent, and I had absolutely zero input at all, there are things I don't necessarily agree with in that aswell, but it's certainly more accurate than dwp assessment, which frankly certainly isn't independent!! I have now heard first hand that assessors got memos months before recent announcements about 4 point criteria, and try and reduce them to below 4, which is exactly what happened to me, dropped them down and added on others.
I spoke to a legal firm earlier and the advisor said he has vast experience with mandatory reconsideration and appeals, and said telephone reconsideration is actually equally if not more successful than written ones, I said I had been advised by numerous people including citizens advice to not go down that route, he disagreed totally, and said they are legally obliged under equality act to allow upto 13 months for mandatory reconsideration, especially with many health conditions, as it's descrimination otherwise, I don't know how true either point is, what's your personal opinion?
I don't mind doing a telephone one, it's recorded anyway, but written I'd just assume to be better, I just think it's going to look weird as my occupational health assessment basically covers all the points I would be covering, he told me to send pictures of injuries from seizures if I had them, gp notes aswell, I have broken my hand, fingers, had bad bruising over my body etc from seizures, I just don't think they would pay much attention to that.
Is it worth saying that I'm happy to take things to appeal, if not successful at mandatory reconsideration, would the judges at appeal be more considerate towards independent medical assessments and reports? It's crazy really as the ones I have used work for the NHS, and my assessment was done with a nurse for dwp assessment by telephone, surely a occupational therapist is better placed to assess needs and struggles etc, and it was face to face, in my home.
Thanks for your information earlier, it's very helpful, I understand better how to structure the points I need to explain now
I really should of linked my evidence directly to each descriptor, which I didnt do, I thought the Decision maker had medical knowledge, you live and learn.
My occupational therapy assessment report is very detailed, and outlines all my conditions, and symptoms, and for each descriptor it outlines my problems, which conditions affect my ability to perform the task, and explains why, would I still be best doing the table as you described? Even though the report explains it far better than I probably could, it explains my living situation, and why I can't use most aides, and says I need rehoused.
My carer is my partner and carer, and she done a letter but looking back it probably wasn't great, and could be more targeted to each descriptor.
In terms of managing treatments and therapy, the physiotherapy exercises are through NHS, they have details of what I need to do, and I have explained that I need my carer to help me lie on exercise mat, and support me, and encourage me, and observe to make sure it's done correctly, and help me get up, and move me into the various different positions etc. I also have tens machine therapy which was suggested and documented in pain management consultant letter, sand with hot and cold therapy, and is hydrotherapy through NHS still classed as requiring assistance as my carer helps me get changed for the pool, and after the therapy aswell?
Mental health is the one I'm struggling with, as they insist it's stable as medication hasn't changed and no cmht input, I'm on waiting list for cmht, and medication can't be changed because of my liver cirrhosis, it's wrong to disregard my mental health struggles due to NHS waiting lists, I'm also waiting for Autism assessment and rheumatology assessment, they stated I passed security for assessment, answered questions without prompting, had no issues, no breathlessness, all incorrect, as my carer had written a list of my national insurance number, dates of appointments, conditions, medications, dosages, and my general security information, she did prompt me several times, not verbally, but by pointing and putting medical information in front of me, I lost my temper with the Assessor, and told her I was struggling to cope with the assessment, all of which happened after the recording stopped for a problem, but I recorded the whole assessment myself, and I was breathless at several points, it's pretty hard to assess that on speaker phone from a distance lol.
They keep saying in the report that I have no neurology input anymore, why would I? It's diagnosed and there is no treatment, so discharged now. No evidence of post ictal symptoms, which was documented from neurology, carers letter, my own account.
I am also getting a private physiotherapist assessment to assess me head to toe, and report in all my issues, how they affect daily living, future treatment plan, because NHS musculoskeletal is very poor, and getting private psychiatrist assessment as im not waiting any longer for mental health assessment, as I get no support, and 9 months I have waited so far for NHS.
I personally think it's not fair if they don't put much weight on private assessments, they are independent, and I had absolutely zero input at all, there are things I don't necessarily agree with in that aswell, but it's certainly more accurate than dwp assessment, which frankly certainly isn't independent!! I have now heard first hand that assessors got memos months before recent announcements about 4 point criteria, and try and reduce them to below 4, which is exactly what happened to me, dropped them down and added on others.
I spoke to a legal firm earlier and the advisor said he has vast experience with mandatory reconsideration and appeals, and said telephone reconsideration is actually equally if not more successful than written ones, I said I had been advised by numerous people including citizens advice to not go down that route, he disagreed totally, and said they are legally obliged under equality act to allow upto 13 months for mandatory reconsideration, especially with many health conditions, as it's descrimination otherwise, I don't know how true either point is, what's your personal opinion?
I don't mind doing a telephone one, it's recorded anyway, but written I'd just assume to be better, I just think it's going to look weird as my occupational health assessment basically covers all the points I would be covering, he told me to send pictures of injuries from seizures if I had them, gp notes aswell, I have broken my hand, fingers, had bad bruising over my body etc from seizures, I just don't think they would pay much attention to that.
Is it worth saying that I'm happy to take things to appeal, if not successful at mandatory reconsideration, would the judges at appeal be more considerate towards independent medical assessments and reports? It's crazy really as the ones I have used work for the NHS, and my assessment was done with a nurse for dwp assessment by telephone, surely a occupational therapist is better placed to assess needs and struggles etc, and it was face to face, in my home.
Thanks for your information earlier, it's very helpful, I understand better how to structure the points I need to explain now
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3 hours 40 minutes ago #303322 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic PIP Mandatory reconsideration advice
Hi Geordielad880
Advice from legal firm
I don't know where he is getting the figures that MRs conducted over the phone are more successful than paper ones. I have not seen any statistics like that published, so I can't verify that what he is saying is accurate. Of course some people do that, just so they can get an MR in because it is better than not putting one in at all, or for whatever reason they are unable to put in a written submission.
Here is my problem with a telephone submission. How do you know that the person you are speaking to is typing up precisely what you tell them? You won't. You have multiple issues and I can see how easily someone would try and paraphrase what you tell them. Now they may do a good job - but you won't know. In order for you to then see a copy of that you would have to put in a Subject Access Request - which you may not receive until after the decision for you MR has been made. You wouldn't be able to suddenly say - that's not what you said. Also I can guarantee that if you need an hour to give your submission they will hurry you along and say that they have enough information. The call handler is not the person who is going to make the decision so they have absolutely no idea, they will just be under pressure to move to the next call.
However, every claimant has to do what is right for them. And if you feel that you could say what you want with a telephone submission and you're comfortable with doing that you shouldn't be swayed by what I said in the previous paragraph.
Managing Therapy
The hydrotherapy won't count. It refers to therapy that you perform at home. I know you might have to be reminded to get ready etc - but they won't care.
The physiotherapy - absolutely should have been considered, as it has been prescribed for you. So you say that the assessor "omitted..." or "forgot...". Same with the tens machine. However, please include the links as I suggested to the specific evidence you previously submitted. They won't go through 100 pages to find the proof, so they will easily ignore it.
Mental Health Issues
You are absolutely right to feel agrieved by what they say about your medication, because it is nonsense. I would argue something like this. "The fact that my antidepressant dose hasn't changed does not mean my mental health is stable. The stability of a prescription doesn't reflect the reality of someone's condition. According to NICE guidelines (www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222) many people continue to experience significant symptoms even while on long-term medication. A lack of dosage change is not proof of recovery or stability — it often reflects caution in prescribing, side-effect concerns, or a plateau in treatment response."
Also, argue as you have done that there is a shortage of mental health services across the country, and it is not your fault that you are on a waiting list. I would say that it is wrong to discriminate against a person by implying that their situation is not serious enough just because they do not have services. Remind them you have been on contact with the Crisis Team.
No neurology input
You need to say this is a lack of medical knowledge about non-epileptic seizures, the symptoms and impact. Even Epilepsy Action ironically has information on this - write a couple of sentences and give them a link www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/seizures/dissoc...attack-disorder-nead
Private medical reports
It isn't fair that they don't generally carry as much weight, but it's not something you can fight. If you have had them done - include them - but as I've said, make sure you link it - don't expect them to work it out. You can even put a specific quote from one part of the report with the reference.
13 months for late submission
They do accept most late submissions, but they do sometimes refuse one. One of our members was recently refused. I can't remember why, but I think they then appealed that decision. Don't say that you are happy to go to appeal - because it's not relevant to the person looking at your MR. Once they have completed their MR - that's their job done and whether you would want to continue if the decision goes against you won't matter.
Recorded Assessment
I was so glad to hear that you have a recorded assessment. When you put in your MR, you need to tell them that you have a recording of the assessment, which shows the assessor was "mistaken" in believing you were not upset. You don't have to say much else. Now they don't usually take any notice of recordings at this stage - but it will make them look more carefully at your evidence.
If the assessor has completely misquoted you, say so, eg. "The assessor has said that I can take a bath twice a week alone. The assessor was mistaken, and what I said was "I am unable to take a bath because of the risk of my having a seizure. Even with my partner present, this would not be safe." Don't put my recording shows that I said .... because at this stage, they do not have the recording.
If you have to go to Appeal, you will need to have the recording transcribed and give them a paper-copy of the transcript and a physical copy of the recording.
BIS
Advice from legal firm
I don't know where he is getting the figures that MRs conducted over the phone are more successful than paper ones. I have not seen any statistics like that published, so I can't verify that what he is saying is accurate. Of course some people do that, just so they can get an MR in because it is better than not putting one in at all, or for whatever reason they are unable to put in a written submission.
Here is my problem with a telephone submission. How do you know that the person you are speaking to is typing up precisely what you tell them? You won't. You have multiple issues and I can see how easily someone would try and paraphrase what you tell them. Now they may do a good job - but you won't know. In order for you to then see a copy of that you would have to put in a Subject Access Request - which you may not receive until after the decision for you MR has been made. You wouldn't be able to suddenly say - that's not what you said. Also I can guarantee that if you need an hour to give your submission they will hurry you along and say that they have enough information. The call handler is not the person who is going to make the decision so they have absolutely no idea, they will just be under pressure to move to the next call.
However, every claimant has to do what is right for them. And if you feel that you could say what you want with a telephone submission and you're comfortable with doing that you shouldn't be swayed by what I said in the previous paragraph.
Managing Therapy
The hydrotherapy won't count. It refers to therapy that you perform at home. I know you might have to be reminded to get ready etc - but they won't care.
The physiotherapy - absolutely should have been considered, as it has been prescribed for you. So you say that the assessor "omitted..." or "forgot...". Same with the tens machine. However, please include the links as I suggested to the specific evidence you previously submitted. They won't go through 100 pages to find the proof, so they will easily ignore it.
Mental Health Issues
You are absolutely right to feel agrieved by what they say about your medication, because it is nonsense. I would argue something like this. "The fact that my antidepressant dose hasn't changed does not mean my mental health is stable. The stability of a prescription doesn't reflect the reality of someone's condition. According to NICE guidelines (www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng222) many people continue to experience significant symptoms even while on long-term medication. A lack of dosage change is not proof of recovery or stability — it often reflects caution in prescribing, side-effect concerns, or a plateau in treatment response."
Also, argue as you have done that there is a shortage of mental health services across the country, and it is not your fault that you are on a waiting list. I would say that it is wrong to discriminate against a person by implying that their situation is not serious enough just because they do not have services. Remind them you have been on contact with the Crisis Team.
No neurology input
You need to say this is a lack of medical knowledge about non-epileptic seizures, the symptoms and impact. Even Epilepsy Action ironically has information on this - write a couple of sentences and give them a link www.epilepsy.org.uk/info/seizures/dissoc...attack-disorder-nead
Private medical reports
It isn't fair that they don't generally carry as much weight, but it's not something you can fight. If you have had them done - include them - but as I've said, make sure you link it - don't expect them to work it out. You can even put a specific quote from one part of the report with the reference.
13 months for late submission
They do accept most late submissions, but they do sometimes refuse one. One of our members was recently refused. I can't remember why, but I think they then appealed that decision. Don't say that you are happy to go to appeal - because it's not relevant to the person looking at your MR. Once they have completed their MR - that's their job done and whether you would want to continue if the decision goes against you won't matter.
Recorded Assessment
I was so glad to hear that you have a recorded assessment. When you put in your MR, you need to tell them that you have a recording of the assessment, which shows the assessor was "mistaken" in believing you were not upset. You don't have to say much else. Now they don't usually take any notice of recordings at this stage - but it will make them look more carefully at your evidence.
If the assessor has completely misquoted you, say so, eg. "The assessor has said that I can take a bath twice a week alone. The assessor was mistaken, and what I said was "I am unable to take a bath because of the risk of my having a seizure. Even with my partner present, this would not be safe." Don't put my recording shows that I said .... because at this stage, they do not have the recording.
If you have to go to Appeal, you will need to have the recording transcribed and give them a paper-copy of the transcript and a physical copy of the recording.
BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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