- Posts: 1418
- Forum
- Members forums
- ESA, PIP and DLA Queries and Results
- Tribunal & Legal Challenges - Flawed PIP Assessment
× Members
Tribunal & Legal Challenges - Flawed PIP Assessment
- LL26
- Offline
Less More
7 months 4 weeks ago #289265 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic Tribunal & Legal Challenges - Flawed PIP Assessment
Hi MDBond,
Ok,
This is the time line.
1.Tribunal hearing
2.Decision
3. Within one month of hearing write
and ask for record of proceedings and written statement of reasons.
4. WSOR arrives (may take a while)
5. Within 1 month write in and request set aside
(Stages 3 and 5 and self referral to UT under stage 7c can be made as a late request, up to 13mths late, but you will need to show good cause. More so if very late request , is made.)
6. Tribunal considers
7. Decision
a. Agree to set aside and re-hearing is set up- new panel, totally fresh hearing
b. Agree to set aside but because there is an important point of law or something complex - case is sent to Upper Tribunal for decision
c. Not set aside - but you can then make your own application to Upper Tribunal if there is an error of law - within 1 mth
8.If the case is referred to UT they can either decide the case themselves or send back to First tier tribunal for a completely fresh hearing.
The suggestions made by myself earlier are for possible errors of law - these are about the sort of things that generally could comprise an error of law, and are particular things to look at based on your explanations of what's happened.
The WSOR is the crucial factor here.
Memory can play tricks. We have all been to meetings or had conversations, and you are convinced someone said something or acted in a certain way. Listening to the recording and reading the WSOR will confirm whether your theory is correct, and crucially will provide solid evidence of this.
The WSOR should fully explain the decision- the legal test/s used, what evidence was relied upon, and why.
The legal tests are obviously set down in law so no room for variance, and the requirements are all set down in the members guides.
Evidence has to be identified and explained.
There are various things that could be evidence for the tribunal
a. What you say either orally at the hearing or within claim form or submissions.
b. Evidence from someone else- eg friend at hearing
c. Documents eg medical report from GP.
d. Direct evidence eg a photo or xray
e. Assessment report
f. Observations at hearing - but these have to be explained and you should be allowed to comment- eg saw claimant walk 20 m into hearing room without a limp. Brisk pace.
You don't need corroboration at a tribunal (unlike eg in criminal courts )
However just because you say you have a bad leg doesn't mean it's true. You could be lying, you might be genuinely mistaken or delusional.
The tribunal will consider how you give your evidence and then weigh this. Your GPS report will help to support your evidence, the xray or mri photo will provide stronger proof still.
However, maybe you say you are disabled. The assessment says not.
So the tribunal will have to decide if they believe you, maybe you are exaggerating, lying etc if they feel this is the case then they will have to explain why it is they don't believe you. They might believe part of what you are saying but not all, again they need to explain.
GP report and assessment report conflict.
Both could be wrong or one is right one is wrong? Tribunal can decide either way, but they can't just say 'we accept the assessment report - there are no disabilities', but ignore your GP confirming your problems. And, what about the xray why don't they believe this!
So, eg if every time you answer a question WSOR says disability is exaggerated further the tribunal said 'claimant prone to exaggerate we believe she has done the same with her GP. Therefore GP report appears to overinflate nature of disability. Assessment lasted 2 hours and claimant has not disputed the conclusions this. Therefore we accept assessment report and conclude no disability...' This might not be the conclusion you agree with, but there is a reasonable explanation and hence this is unlikely to be an error of law.
Using the same example, you are sure you don't exaggerate or overinflate with each answer. So you go back to recording. You hear the following.
At 1 min 40 Qu. How far can you walk without being breathless?
A. 35 m
2.57min Qu. Can you confirm your walking ability again?
A. Yes. It's as I said its 35m. Its the distance from the door to the car.
7.15 Qu. So you say you can walk 50 or 60m to the bus stop?
A. No, I never use the bus, I only go as far as the car which is parked about 30 or 35m from the door.
Similar pattern of questions and answers over various topics.
In the example there is no exaggeration, you maintain it's the same distance. Hence whilst the explanation of exaggeration given by the tribunal could be reasonable it is not borne out by the evidence- the tribunal have ignored what has been said. This could comprise an error of law as they have not based their decision on actual evidence.
You just need to look for discrepancies in evidence and WSOR. The paperwork also comprise evidence so cross reference that too.
The recording will also give a clear indication of the manner of the tribunal and vitally your reaction. This could also indicate a perception of bias if brusque condescending or intimidating questioning etc
I hope this helps.
Please don't worry about taking uo our time - we are here to help!
LL26
Ok,
This is the time line.
1.Tribunal hearing
2.Decision
3. Within one month of hearing write
and ask for record of proceedings and written statement of reasons.
4. WSOR arrives (may take a while)
5. Within 1 month write in and request set aside
(Stages 3 and 5 and self referral to UT under stage 7c can be made as a late request, up to 13mths late, but you will need to show good cause. More so if very late request , is made.)
6. Tribunal considers
7. Decision
a. Agree to set aside and re-hearing is set up- new panel, totally fresh hearing
b. Agree to set aside but because there is an important point of law or something complex - case is sent to Upper Tribunal for decision
c. Not set aside - but you can then make your own application to Upper Tribunal if there is an error of law - within 1 mth
8.If the case is referred to UT they can either decide the case themselves or send back to First tier tribunal for a completely fresh hearing.
The suggestions made by myself earlier are for possible errors of law - these are about the sort of things that generally could comprise an error of law, and are particular things to look at based on your explanations of what's happened.
The WSOR is the crucial factor here.
Memory can play tricks. We have all been to meetings or had conversations, and you are convinced someone said something or acted in a certain way. Listening to the recording and reading the WSOR will confirm whether your theory is correct, and crucially will provide solid evidence of this.
The WSOR should fully explain the decision- the legal test/s used, what evidence was relied upon, and why.
The legal tests are obviously set down in law so no room for variance, and the requirements are all set down in the members guides.
Evidence has to be identified and explained.
There are various things that could be evidence for the tribunal
a. What you say either orally at the hearing or within claim form or submissions.
b. Evidence from someone else- eg friend at hearing
c. Documents eg medical report from GP.
d. Direct evidence eg a photo or xray
e. Assessment report
f. Observations at hearing - but these have to be explained and you should be allowed to comment- eg saw claimant walk 20 m into hearing room without a limp. Brisk pace.
You don't need corroboration at a tribunal (unlike eg in criminal courts )
However just because you say you have a bad leg doesn't mean it's true. You could be lying, you might be genuinely mistaken or delusional.
The tribunal will consider how you give your evidence and then weigh this. Your GPS report will help to support your evidence, the xray or mri photo will provide stronger proof still.
However, maybe you say you are disabled. The assessment says not.
So the tribunal will have to decide if they believe you, maybe you are exaggerating, lying etc if they feel this is the case then they will have to explain why it is they don't believe you. They might believe part of what you are saying but not all, again they need to explain.
GP report and assessment report conflict.
Both could be wrong or one is right one is wrong? Tribunal can decide either way, but they can't just say 'we accept the assessment report - there are no disabilities', but ignore your GP confirming your problems. And, what about the xray why don't they believe this!
So, eg if every time you answer a question WSOR says disability is exaggerated further the tribunal said 'claimant prone to exaggerate we believe she has done the same with her GP. Therefore GP report appears to overinflate nature of disability. Assessment lasted 2 hours and claimant has not disputed the conclusions this. Therefore we accept assessment report and conclude no disability...' This might not be the conclusion you agree with, but there is a reasonable explanation and hence this is unlikely to be an error of law.
Using the same example, you are sure you don't exaggerate or overinflate with each answer. So you go back to recording. You hear the following.
At 1 min 40 Qu. How far can you walk without being breathless?
A. 35 m
2.57min Qu. Can you confirm your walking ability again?
A. Yes. It's as I said its 35m. Its the distance from the door to the car.
7.15 Qu. So you say you can walk 50 or 60m to the bus stop?
A. No, I never use the bus, I only go as far as the car which is parked about 30 or 35m from the door.
Similar pattern of questions and answers over various topics.
In the example there is no exaggeration, you maintain it's the same distance. Hence whilst the explanation of exaggeration given by the tribunal could be reasonable it is not borne out by the evidence- the tribunal have ignored what has been said. This could comprise an error of law as they have not based their decision on actual evidence.
You just need to look for discrepancies in evidence and WSOR. The paperwork also comprise evidence so cross reference that too.
The recording will also give a clear indication of the manner of the tribunal and vitally your reaction. This could also indicate a perception of bias if brusque condescending or intimidating questioning etc
I hope this helps.
Please don't worry about taking uo our time - we are here to help!
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: Wendy Woo, MDBond
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- MDBond
- Topic Author
- Offline
Less More
- Posts: 84
7 months 4 weeks ago #289277 by MDBond
Replied by MDBond on topic Tribunal & Legal Challenges - Flawed PIP Assessment
Hi LL26,
Thanks so much for such a detailed and helpful response.
Ugh, I'm not looking forward to receiving everything and going through it again. But thank you for letting me know exactly how to proceed when I do get everything. Yes I've read in the interim that it can take months (?!) for the WSoR to arrive, so at least I might have time to recover.
Should I still start with the audio recording as you suggested and work from that with notes and times etc? I think you said everything will dovetail from there with pinpointing possible errors of law. I will then go through everything as you have very kindly advised above, and search for exact errors of law or points that aren't aligning with what they've written in the WSoR.
You're right, it's hard to be totally certain of what was said and the memory can play tricks. However I do remember a few things very clearly and that was the GP minimising or only stating part of my diagnosis (again I will wait to see if she's also only stated part of my diagnosis on the WSoR), the disability expert specifically asking me how I cook and me consistently explaining I can't for the majority of the month because of x, y, z and the judge commenting at the end, after I'd read out my point about how I should get the 12 points for mobility, effectively agreeing with me that I should, although I don't remember exactly what he said, but I know he said something positive, after confirming that I'd correctly stated the legal test.
Anyway, I'm fairly hopeful there will be something in the above bits of conversation that isn't quite correct in their justification. Although the judge was very hot on the law so I'm sure he's tried to make their refusal as legally water tight as possible. However you are absolutely correct that it's the recording which will be key here and will hopefully undermine any points they make in the WSoR = errors of law!
Also as you said, the lack of a fair trial is a valid error of law in itself and there are certainly several things I can point to here.
Can I make the point that the panel appeared to be biased because the judge failed to intervene when the DWP began pulling up evidence not in the bundle, and which nobody else was shown inc me, and questioning me based on that. The panel knew I was unrepresented, therefore, surely the judge should have intervened to ask her why she was asking about information not in the bundle and say that was not fair on me, and possibly even asked me if I wished to answer or not, because I did not have to, etc? This will all be on the audio but I doubt it will feature in the WSoR.
I'm not saying the panel are solely there to stick up for me, but the fact they failed to say anything about that, to me, indicates they had no interest in ensuring I got a fair hearing. If they did, why did they fail to demonstrate it here?
Not sure if you saw the recruitment video I posted, but the judge on that made a big deal of saying the panel were there in an 'enabling' role, to help unrepresented claimants to give their evidence and get a fair hearing. The disability expert also said that panels should not be judgemental/prejudiced. He said it's vital to make the claimants feel at ease, so you can question them to the best of their ability, and emphasised that it's not an adversarial court. It was important to remember these hearings were distressing for claimants so it was key to ensure they were not too distressed as this could impact on their ability to give evidence and therefore have a fair hearing.
He also very interestingly explained the exact process the panel goes through which is really handy to know. First they have a preliminary discussion and go through the issues they have each picked up on and want to address, from the papers. Then they agree who will ask which questions and focus on which areas. Then at the hearing, the judge is meant to open and raise any issues they want to discuss. Then they reconvene to discuss and ideally come to a joint decision.
So, there's certainly the time and space before the hearing for the panel to get together and discuss/possibly form judgemental opinions about the claimant before they've even met them. They certainly plan the questions, so will know in advance roughly how long the hearing will take etc. I believe they used their tea break to reconvene and discuss too, as it was in the second half that the disability guy was rude and the GP rolled her eyes. So very likely forming more 'negative' opinions during their tea break.
I will stop rabbiting on now. Thank you again so much for your lengthy and detailed posts, I'm sure this thread will be a huge help to others as well to refer to
Thanks so much for such a detailed and helpful response.
Ugh, I'm not looking forward to receiving everything and going through it again. But thank you for letting me know exactly how to proceed when I do get everything. Yes I've read in the interim that it can take months (?!) for the WSoR to arrive, so at least I might have time to recover.
Should I still start with the audio recording as you suggested and work from that with notes and times etc? I think you said everything will dovetail from there with pinpointing possible errors of law. I will then go through everything as you have very kindly advised above, and search for exact errors of law or points that aren't aligning with what they've written in the WSoR.
You're right, it's hard to be totally certain of what was said and the memory can play tricks. However I do remember a few things very clearly and that was the GP minimising or only stating part of my diagnosis (again I will wait to see if she's also only stated part of my diagnosis on the WSoR), the disability expert specifically asking me how I cook and me consistently explaining I can't for the majority of the month because of x, y, z and the judge commenting at the end, after I'd read out my point about how I should get the 12 points for mobility, effectively agreeing with me that I should, although I don't remember exactly what he said, but I know he said something positive, after confirming that I'd correctly stated the legal test.
Anyway, I'm fairly hopeful there will be something in the above bits of conversation that isn't quite correct in their justification. Although the judge was very hot on the law so I'm sure he's tried to make their refusal as legally water tight as possible. However you are absolutely correct that it's the recording which will be key here and will hopefully undermine any points they make in the WSoR = errors of law!
Also as you said, the lack of a fair trial is a valid error of law in itself and there are certainly several things I can point to here.
Can I make the point that the panel appeared to be biased because the judge failed to intervene when the DWP began pulling up evidence not in the bundle, and which nobody else was shown inc me, and questioning me based on that. The panel knew I was unrepresented, therefore, surely the judge should have intervened to ask her why she was asking about information not in the bundle and say that was not fair on me, and possibly even asked me if I wished to answer or not, because I did not have to, etc? This will all be on the audio but I doubt it will feature in the WSoR.
I'm not saying the panel are solely there to stick up for me, but the fact they failed to say anything about that, to me, indicates they had no interest in ensuring I got a fair hearing. If they did, why did they fail to demonstrate it here?
Not sure if you saw the recruitment video I posted, but the judge on that made a big deal of saying the panel were there in an 'enabling' role, to help unrepresented claimants to give their evidence and get a fair hearing. The disability expert also said that panels should not be judgemental/prejudiced. He said it's vital to make the claimants feel at ease, so you can question them to the best of their ability, and emphasised that it's not an adversarial court. It was important to remember these hearings were distressing for claimants so it was key to ensure they were not too distressed as this could impact on their ability to give evidence and therefore have a fair hearing.
He also very interestingly explained the exact process the panel goes through which is really handy to know. First they have a preliminary discussion and go through the issues they have each picked up on and want to address, from the papers. Then they agree who will ask which questions and focus on which areas. Then at the hearing, the judge is meant to open and raise any issues they want to discuss. Then they reconvene to discuss and ideally come to a joint decision.
So, there's certainly the time and space before the hearing for the panel to get together and discuss/possibly form judgemental opinions about the claimant before they've even met them. They certainly plan the questions, so will know in advance roughly how long the hearing will take etc. I believe they used their tea break to reconvene and discuss too, as it was in the second half that the disability guy was rude and the GP rolled her eyes. So very likely forming more 'negative' opinions during their tea break.
I will stop rabbiting on now. Thank you again so much for your lengthy and detailed posts, I'm sure this thread will be a huge help to others as well to refer to
The following user(s) said Thank You: denby, Wendy Woo, LL26
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- LL26
- Offline
Less More
- Posts: 1418
7 months 4 weeks ago - 7 months 4 weeks ago #289282 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic Tribunal & Legal Challenges - Flawed PIP Assessment
Hi MDBond,
Just a quick response. (And yes your last post about the hearing process resonates well with my experience.) What I just want to say is this. Rule 2 Tribunal Rules Overriding objective to deal with cases fairly and justly. See here
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/2685/made
What more do I need to add?
LL26
Just a quick response. (And yes your last post about the hearing process resonates well with my experience.) What I just want to say is this. Rule 2 Tribunal Rules Overriding objective to deal with cases fairly and justly. See here
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2008/2685/made
What more do I need to add?
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Last edit: 7 months 4 weeks ago by LL26.
The following user(s) said Thank You: MDBond
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- MDBond
- Topic Author
- Offline
Less More
- Posts: 84
7 months 4 weeks ago #289344 by MDBond
Replied by MDBond on topic Tribunal & Legal Challenges - Flawed PIP Assessment
This is fantastic, thanks LL26.
Lots here I can even quote in my new appeal/request to set aside, if I want to. The judge certainly didn't use his 'special expertise' to ensure I got a fair hearing re the DWP lady's surprise evidence. Don't think anyone can argue with that. As you said, it breaches article 6 of the ECHR too. I might type a bit of this up now, so it's done. Thanks again
Lots here I can even quote in my new appeal/request to set aside, if I want to. The judge certainly didn't use his 'special expertise' to ensure I got a fair hearing re the DWP lady's surprise evidence. Don't think anyone can argue with that. As you said, it breaches article 6 of the ECHR too. I might type a bit of this up now, so it's done. Thanks again
The following user(s) said Thank You: denby, LL26, Anji
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- MDBond
- Topic Author
- Offline
Less More
- Posts: 84
7 months 2 weeks ago #289744 by MDBond
Replied by MDBond on topic Tribunal & Legal Challenges - Flawed PIP Assessment
Also, I forgot to add on my earlier post, if my appeal reasons go to the same judge for his permission to appeal, then surely by virtue of his position/s, he's going to say NO to anything I write?! Just as he and the panel refused my appeal without giving it a fair hearing/listening to any of my arguments?
How on earth is any of this fair or independent? I think all DWP benefits are essentially given to us by our local councils? Am I right/wrong in thinking this?
I feel like bringing this guy's full time job to the attention of HMCTS. But who knows, perhaps this is all perfectly above board in their world.
How on earth is any of this fair or independent? I think all DWP benefits are essentially given to us by our local councils? Am I right/wrong in thinking this?
I feel like bringing this guy's full time job to the attention of HMCTS. But who knows, perhaps this is all perfectly above board in their world.
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- LL26
- Offline
Less More
- Posts: 1418
7 months 2 weeks ago #289748 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic Tribunal & Legal Challenges - Flawed PIP Assessment
Hi MDBond,
After the WSOR arrives and you have identified any error of law you can send in a request to set aside/request for leave to appeal to the Upper Tribunal (mention both). There is every possibility that if there is a strong error of law that the District Judge will accept this. But even if not it doesn't matter because you can fill out the UT1 form and pursue the case at UT. So try not to overthink, take it one step at a time.
LL26
After the WSOR arrives and you have identified any error of law you can send in a request to set aside/request for leave to appeal to the Upper Tribunal (mention both). There is every possibility that if there is a strong error of law that the District Judge will accept this. But even if not it doesn't matter because you can fill out the UT1 form and pursue the case at UT. So try not to overthink, take it one step at a time.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: MDBond
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
Moderators: Gordon, Gary, BIS, Catherine, Wendy, Kelly, greekqueen, peter, Katherine, Super User, Chris, David