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Showering: can’t at home (ocd) but can at gym
- Gordon
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11 months 1 day ago #286385 by Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by Gordon on topic Showering: can’t at home (ocd) but can at gym
M
I agree driving 30 minutes to shower is unreasonable, however, I think you are still missing the point.
You say your OCPD prevents you from showering at home, this is what you should be explaining. Why is this? How does it manifest itself?
I know that explaining the rituals you might have can be deeply personal but you need to concentrate on the goal, scoring as man points as you can.
By referring to your showering at the gym, despite the travel, you are diminishing your argument that you cannot shower. Start with why you cannot do it at home and only mention the gym if pressed.
Gordon
I agree driving 30 minutes to shower is unreasonable, however, I think you are still missing the point.
You say your OCPD prevents you from showering at home, this is what you should be explaining. Why is this? How does it manifest itself?
I know that explaining the rituals you might have can be deeply personal but you need to concentrate on the goal, scoring as man points as you can.
By referring to your showering at the gym, despite the travel, you are diminishing your argument that you cannot shower. Start with why you cannot do it at home and only mention the gym if pressed.
Gordon
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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- Mitch
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11 months 1 day ago #286386 by Mitch
Replied by Mitch on topic Showering: can’t at home (ocd) but can at gym
Gordon, you are TERIFFIC. Thank you for all the advice!!!
The following user(s) said Thank You: Gordon
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- MiloGizmo
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10 months 4 weeks ago #286453 by MiloGizmo
Replied by MiloGizmo on topic Showering: can’t at home (ocd) but can at gym
Whether or not the decision maker or assessor thinks that you can shower at home or elsewhere or not, if you tell them you can shower anywhere that is likely to be good enough for them to score you zero on that.
While you have a home and a shower is available there, can the same be said of a friend's home or a gym. The pandemic stopped people in their tracks. Any plumbing problem would mean a trip to the gym just to shower would be wasted. I'm just pointing out the pitfalls of assuming you can shower elsewhere.
But the washing and bathing descriptors are looking at both physical and mental restrictions on washing or bathing. The 'Reliability Criteria' or PIP Regulation 4 sets up the terms used to define the overall ability of a claimant to wash or bathe 'including to shower' to an acceptable standard.
You are likely correct that not being able to shower at home due to a mental health condition will satisfy that aspect of the Reliability Criteria and should stop the DWP assessor claiming you have no problem washing or bathing. Travelling several miles to shower is not normal and it is that simple.
The only options you can fight are the following though, in my opinion at least, due to these being tied to something other than a physical impairment. Each of descriptors B, D, E, F and G indicates in its wording a natural meaning of a physical restriction on your part. Potentially C which discusses supervision or prompting, and E which calls for assistance to 'shower' in your case could be argued on a mental health basis. G cannot really be considered for the same mental health reason for two reasons: a decision maker will not end up awarding you a full 8-points when you can shower but just not at home. The second reason is that G depends on assistance which would be acceptable to you to shower at home or anywhere else for that matter.
Your angle of attack on this is likely to be tied to some form of 'prompting, supervision or assistance' due to not being able to go in your own shower at all. The assessors do have some leeway to consider your additional needs and tie it to specific descriptors. C would give you 2 points while E would award 3 points.
Decision makers used this sort of approach with Mobility activity 1 descriptor B for so many reasons that had nothing at all to do with the meaning of that descriptor and went completely against what it meant on many cases. They did this until Upper Tribunal decisions changed things so that they were prevented legally from using this 'prompting' descriptor as they had been. The same sort of stance can easily be taken with C or E for your shower issues.
It will depend on how you put your argument and very specifically on how you consider to use 'showering' elsewhere. If you had Covid or some other communicable disease then that would preclude you from using the Gym's shower, and also most likely a friend's. The only shower you have reasonable access to is your own and perhaps you should firstly recognise that limitation.
Showering in a gym is also not quite as 'private' regardless of basic nakedness. A fully hygienic male or female showering experience is most likely not something that you do in a communal gym, and if you are then there may be issues of 'being too open around others' to the point of that being a mental impairment. This is just my view.
Best of luck
Needs supervision or prompting to be able to wash or bathe. 2 points
While you have a home and a shower is available there, can the same be said of a friend's home or a gym. The pandemic stopped people in their tracks. Any plumbing problem would mean a trip to the gym just to shower would be wasted. I'm just pointing out the pitfalls of assuming you can shower elsewhere.
But the washing and bathing descriptors are looking at both physical and mental restrictions on washing or bathing. The 'Reliability Criteria' or PIP Regulation 4 sets up the terms used to define the overall ability of a claimant to wash or bathe 'including to shower' to an acceptable standard.
You are likely correct that not being able to shower at home due to a mental health condition will satisfy that aspect of the Reliability Criteria and should stop the DWP assessor claiming you have no problem washing or bathing. Travelling several miles to shower is not normal and it is that simple.
The only options you can fight are the following though, in my opinion at least, due to these being tied to something other than a physical impairment. Each of descriptors B, D, E, F and G indicates in its wording a natural meaning of a physical restriction on your part. Potentially C which discusses supervision or prompting, and E which calls for assistance to 'shower' in your case could be argued on a mental health basis. G cannot really be considered for the same mental health reason for two reasons: a decision maker will not end up awarding you a full 8-points when you can shower but just not at home. The second reason is that G depends on assistance which would be acceptable to you to shower at home or anywhere else for that matter.
Your angle of attack on this is likely to be tied to some form of 'prompting, supervision or assistance' due to not being able to go in your own shower at all. The assessors do have some leeway to consider your additional needs and tie it to specific descriptors. C would give you 2 points while E would award 3 points.
Decision makers used this sort of approach with Mobility activity 1 descriptor B for so many reasons that had nothing at all to do with the meaning of that descriptor and went completely against what it meant on many cases. They did this until Upper Tribunal decisions changed things so that they were prevented legally from using this 'prompting' descriptor as they had been. The same sort of stance can easily be taken with C or E for your shower issues.
It will depend on how you put your argument and very specifically on how you consider to use 'showering' elsewhere. If you had Covid or some other communicable disease then that would preclude you from using the Gym's shower, and also most likely a friend's. The only shower you have reasonable access to is your own and perhaps you should firstly recognise that limitation.
Showering in a gym is also not quite as 'private' regardless of basic nakedness. A fully hygienic male or female showering experience is most likely not something that you do in a communal gym, and if you are then there may be issues of 'being too open around others' to the point of that being a mental impairment. This is just my view.
Best of luck
Needs supervision or prompting to be able to wash or bathe. 2 points
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- Mitch
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10 months 4 weeks ago #286524 by Mitch
Replied by Mitch on topic Showering: can’t at home (ocd) but can at gym
Hi Milo,
Wow - what a strong, helpful response. I can’t thank you enough for your advice. PIP is hard annd confusing, and my specific conditions make it even harder and more confusing. So thank you for your time and merry Christmas!
Wow - what a strong, helpful response. I can’t thank you enough for your advice. PIP is hard annd confusing, and my specific conditions make it even harder and more confusing. So thank you for your time and merry Christmas!
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