activity 15 and 16 identical?

hi.just recieved my bundle of letters and i am totally confused.i scored nine points on execution of tasks(finishing routine daily jobs) and yet no points for looks like a very similar activity initiating and sustaining personal action(organising and keeping up with routine jobs)

Hi youngsteptoe

I can see where you are coming from.

I went for 15 points on both of these activities, and just like you I scored 9 points for Execution of Tasks, and zero points for Sustaining Personal Action.

Although they are similar, there are clear differences in that the former is about the length of time it takes you to complete a task, the latter is about getting started on a task and seeing it through, without any relation to time.

Please read the ESA mental health guide in relation to these activities. The stupidity of Activity 15 is made clear in the guide, in that it is impossible to calculate exactly how long somebody without a mental disablement should take to complete an ordinary every day task. I would also add that one-and-a-half times as long to twice as long is quite a small window. It is likely that most people with mental health problems should either score zero points or 15 points. If you take a long time to do something as a result of a mental health problem, in most cases you will take more than twice as long.

I've had a look at my medical report and realise that Activities 12 to 16 are grouped together under the heading 'Understanding and Focus'. The medical evidence to justify the doctor's choices are also grouped together (unlike IB medical reports) so it is impossible to establish exactly what reasons the ATOS doctor gave to deny you points for Activity 16.

When you say that you have just received your 'bundle of letters', I'm not sure if you are referring to the appeal bundle, and your appeal is already in progress (or passed the medical and are only asking the question out of interest). If you are appealing you can put forward your own evidence to suggest that you satisfy Activity 16.

Hope this has been helpful

Derek

thanks derek

what i mean by recieving the bundle is i have failed my wca scoring nine points on activity 15.when my case goes to tribunal (not before 1/4/2011 iam based in north west england} is there a chance i could lose points on activity 15 while gaining points on activity 16?

Hi youngsteptoe

Although it is possible to lose points on Activity 15, as a tribunal is a complete rehearing of the case, depending on what boxes you ticked on the ESA50 questionnaire, it may be possible for you to argue on appeal that you should have scored 15 points for Activity 15. This of course only applies if you feel that it takes you twice as long, etc... At the very least you should provide evidence to support the 9 points that you already have.

However, as you scored 0 points for Activity 16 you need to make a strong case that explains why you satisfy this Activity, and hopefully only 6 points will be required. You basically need to argue that you cannot, due to cognitive impairment or a severe disorder of mood or behaviour, initiate or sustain personal action without requiring frequent verbal prompting given by another person in the claimant’s presence, at the very least.

I trust you have or will study the ESA appeal guide which contains detailed information about the entire process.

Good luck

Derek

to be honest i cant see there is any difference at all between the two? if
as in my case i score nine points in
taking over one and a half times in
doing and finishing a job activity 16
is starting and continuing a job.but if you have problems doing and finishing
the job and score points you must have problems starting the job?

Hi youngsteptoe

As ESA is a relatively new benefit in comparison to IB, there is little case law to give a clear understanding of how the activities should be interpreted.

You could have a point in that, if you are unable to start a task, it will also take infinity (which is obviously more than two hours) to complete it.

On the other hand, Commissioners/UT Judges whose decisions can be legally binding on first-tier tribunals, tend to take the view that the law should be interpreted as the legislator intended. This means that if a particular problem is covered in one activity, it can be argued that it should be disregarded in another.

You haven't mentioned how your appeal has progressed, but assuming that it is still ongoing, I think you need to treat both activities individually, and put forward a case as to why you are unable to sustain personal action.

Hope this is helpful.

Derek