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PIP Mobility - 1. Planning and Following Journeys
- JW
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3 days 8 hours ago #302986 by JW
PIP Mobility - 1. Planning and Following Journeys was created by JW
I am only able to leave my house 1 to 2 times a week by myself, and only for a brief period of time. However, I can leave my house on further occasions and for longer periods when accompanied by my adult daughter. Does the fact that I can leave my house by myself at all mean that it is impossible for me to satisfy descriptor (f), even though typically I will leave me house more often accompanied by my daughter? I apologise if I have duplicated this question, but when i first posted an earlier version, it didn't show up on the list of questions, and I got paranoid that i hit cancel instead of submit.
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- LL26
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2 days 18 hours ago #303015 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic PIP Mobility - 1. Planning and Following Journeys
Hi JW,
Descriptor points are scored if you meet the requirements for the majority of days.
This isn't quite as simple as counting days you do and don't manage to complete the relevant descriptor task.
There are 4 criteria allow which must be met. Any day where one or more criteria aren't met counts as a day towards the majority. The criteria apply to ALL descriptors
1. Safety
2. Acceptable standard
3. Reasonable time
4. Repetition
1. Safety - is there risk of substantial harm. Easy examples of this is someone with epilepsy who might fit and hence fall over and hurt themselves. If you fall on concrete or worst still might do this in front of a car the outcome could clearly be catastrophic. However fits might not occur very often, but the risk of harm is still very great. In terms of planning and following journeys, safety could comprise getting into an unsafe situation, going off with strangers, not understanding road safety, getting lost and as a result panic attack leading to serious asthma attack, etc
2. Not reaching an acceptable standard means somehow not completing the task as well as most people. Not reaching the 'norm'. Again in terms of journeys this may well overlap with safety but potentially even just having a panic attack,not arriving at destination, pain breathlessness potentially fatigue could all fall within this
3. Reasonable time- mo more than twice that of non disabled person- so if you get lost, have to only make right turns, can't understand the route and need to wait for help etc this could all take you outside the Reasonable time.
4. Repetition- this is perhaps the most important of the criteria. All of the descriptor tasks need to be repeated this is both what needs to be done and what you would wish to do if not disabled. Differing rates for each task. Cooking a meal maybe 3 times per day, Toilet needs let say 5 times a day, but more for those with incontinence or eg bladder issues.
Journeys- what and where could you go, or need to go over a day.
Think about this as a generic list
Take kids to school
Go to bank
Go to post office
Collect prescriptions from chemist
Come home
Return borrowed book to neighbour
Collect kids
Take kids to karate
Come home
Visit Aunt
Come home again
For many people this could be an average day. Renember that journeys don't always mean epic voyages across the country, these can comprise a few hundred yards, 2 miles, 20 miles or 200 miles. (Also when thinking about purely walking for mobility 2 all of these journeys could be via car or other means, but will inevitably involve at least a few steps to get in or out of a building at either end )
So, the question is can you repeat all these journeys?
If you can't do all the required repeats across the whole day, unless its for very trivial amount of time - then you fail repetition.
Think about the following-
If you can no repeat,, why not- what is the problem why you can't do this.
Do you simply need prompting or encouragement to go out?
Maybe you can manage most or all familiar journeys?
Maybe having someone with you helps you to stay safe, and or maintain an acceptable standard or be within time?
This might be just on familiar journeys or also for unfamiliar ones as well?
Maybe there are a few individual routes you can manage reasonably well but these are only eg to the doctor or village shop?
Maybe its certain times of the day that's a problem?
Sometimes, people avoid things that cause problems. If you don't go out because of the sheer panic, I think I'm having a heart attack, shaky terrified kind of feeling, then it is highly likely you can argue that this will amount to 'overwhelming psychological distress '. Like a person with bad arthritis in hands will avoid wearing button up clothes and shoe laces.
Remember that the use of descriptor words saying not being able to undertake any journey or always, only actually means for the majority of days. If you aren't safe/acceptable/timely/can't repeat then that day will coubt towards the majority, same as days where you avoid, and days where you are actually too unwell to perform the task at all.
If 2 or more descriptors in the set apply equally then the highest value should be scored.
There is a justified discrepancy in the scoring if 1e and 1f - the theory is that you will need more help if you need to be accompanied on both familiar and unfamiliar routes, rather than if you can't go out due to having overwhelming psychological distress.
Remember also, even if you are accompanied, and you still get OPD or get pain, or breathlessness or milder panic attacks, this will indicate not reaching an acceptable standard and therefore can show either that you need to be accompanied if that will help alleviate the health issues, or that you genuinely can't undertake any journey due to OPD.
Needing to be accompanied can be for any health reason, including OPD.
Think about how you can or can't make journeys relating to your health problems, and apply the reasoning above ' this should indicate what us the correct score.
Don't worry about posting twice - all posts are moderated before being published. Sometimes we have a lot of posts and hence there is a delay before we can read and publish. Apologies!
I hope this helps.
LL26
Descriptor points are scored if you meet the requirements for the majority of days.
This isn't quite as simple as counting days you do and don't manage to complete the relevant descriptor task.
There are 4 criteria allow which must be met. Any day where one or more criteria aren't met counts as a day towards the majority. The criteria apply to ALL descriptors
1. Safety
2. Acceptable standard
3. Reasonable time
4. Repetition
1. Safety - is there risk of substantial harm. Easy examples of this is someone with epilepsy who might fit and hence fall over and hurt themselves. If you fall on concrete or worst still might do this in front of a car the outcome could clearly be catastrophic. However fits might not occur very often, but the risk of harm is still very great. In terms of planning and following journeys, safety could comprise getting into an unsafe situation, going off with strangers, not understanding road safety, getting lost and as a result panic attack leading to serious asthma attack, etc
2. Not reaching an acceptable standard means somehow not completing the task as well as most people. Not reaching the 'norm'. Again in terms of journeys this may well overlap with safety but potentially even just having a panic attack,not arriving at destination, pain breathlessness potentially fatigue could all fall within this
3. Reasonable time- mo more than twice that of non disabled person- so if you get lost, have to only make right turns, can't understand the route and need to wait for help etc this could all take you outside the Reasonable time.
4. Repetition- this is perhaps the most important of the criteria. All of the descriptor tasks need to be repeated this is both what needs to be done and what you would wish to do if not disabled. Differing rates for each task. Cooking a meal maybe 3 times per day, Toilet needs let say 5 times a day, but more for those with incontinence or eg bladder issues.
Journeys- what and where could you go, or need to go over a day.
Think about this as a generic list
Take kids to school
Go to bank
Go to post office
Collect prescriptions from chemist
Come home
Return borrowed book to neighbour
Collect kids
Take kids to karate
Come home
Visit Aunt
Come home again
For many people this could be an average day. Renember that journeys don't always mean epic voyages across the country, these can comprise a few hundred yards, 2 miles, 20 miles or 200 miles. (Also when thinking about purely walking for mobility 2 all of these journeys could be via car or other means, but will inevitably involve at least a few steps to get in or out of a building at either end )
So, the question is can you repeat all these journeys?
If you can't do all the required repeats across the whole day, unless its for very trivial amount of time - then you fail repetition.
Think about the following-
If you can no repeat,, why not- what is the problem why you can't do this.
Do you simply need prompting or encouragement to go out?
Maybe you can manage most or all familiar journeys?
Maybe having someone with you helps you to stay safe, and or maintain an acceptable standard or be within time?
This might be just on familiar journeys or also for unfamiliar ones as well?
Maybe there are a few individual routes you can manage reasonably well but these are only eg to the doctor or village shop?
Maybe its certain times of the day that's a problem?
Sometimes, people avoid things that cause problems. If you don't go out because of the sheer panic, I think I'm having a heart attack, shaky terrified kind of feeling, then it is highly likely you can argue that this will amount to 'overwhelming psychological distress '. Like a person with bad arthritis in hands will avoid wearing button up clothes and shoe laces.
Remember that the use of descriptor words saying not being able to undertake any journey or always, only actually means for the majority of days. If you aren't safe/acceptable/timely/can't repeat then that day will coubt towards the majority, same as days where you avoid, and days where you are actually too unwell to perform the task at all.
If 2 or more descriptors in the set apply equally then the highest value should be scored.
There is a justified discrepancy in the scoring if 1e and 1f - the theory is that you will need more help if you need to be accompanied on both familiar and unfamiliar routes, rather than if you can't go out due to having overwhelming psychological distress.
Remember also, even if you are accompanied, and you still get OPD or get pain, or breathlessness or milder panic attacks, this will indicate not reaching an acceptable standard and therefore can show either that you need to be accompanied if that will help alleviate the health issues, or that you genuinely can't undertake any journey due to OPD.
Needing to be accompanied can be for any health reason, including OPD.
Think about how you can or can't make journeys relating to your health problems, and apply the reasoning above ' this should indicate what us the correct score.
Don't worry about posting twice - all posts are moderated before being published. Sometimes we have a lot of posts and hence there is a delay before we can read and publish. Apologies!
I hope this helps.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Mark
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2 days 6 hours ago #303033 by Mark
Replied by Mark on topic PIP Mobility - 1. Planning and Following Journeys
I have a feeling that it is not just a case of whether you can do these things it is also from the DWP position that whether you should.
What i mean is i get (f) which implies that you can’t travel on familiar or unfamiliar journeys alone. Not that you should not do so. I take it as they are saying you really should not do it due too whatever reason but we are not saying that you must not do it and it doesn’t compromise your claim if you do.
I wouldn’t travel to unfamiliar places alone. But there are familiar ones in which I can and have done. When i do it am i doing it safely: no, there could be risks of me getting into an altercation. As for acceptable standard, reasonable time, repetition: not if i panic because the bus is too busy and have to wait for another or even walk. Have to get off the bus because some anti-social type doesn’t understand the concept of headphones or can’t read the signs on the bus about causing a nuisance in playing loud music. Or in extreme cases if i put someone’s head through a window (not happened yet!)
So maybe there are risks to me and others if i do travel on my own but it does not mean i am banned from doing so.
That’s my take on it. I mentioned this during a conversation with a DM and they did not not correct me or say you can’t do that.
What i mean is i get (f) which implies that you can’t travel on familiar or unfamiliar journeys alone. Not that you should not do so. I take it as they are saying you really should not do it due too whatever reason but we are not saying that you must not do it and it doesn’t compromise your claim if you do.
I wouldn’t travel to unfamiliar places alone. But there are familiar ones in which I can and have done. When i do it am i doing it safely: no, there could be risks of me getting into an altercation. As for acceptable standard, reasonable time, repetition: not if i panic because the bus is too busy and have to wait for another or even walk. Have to get off the bus because some anti-social type doesn’t understand the concept of headphones or can’t read the signs on the bus about causing a nuisance in playing loud music. Or in extreme cases if i put someone’s head through a window (not happened yet!)
So maybe there are risks to me and others if i do travel on my own but it does not mean i am banned from doing so.
That’s my take on it. I mentioned this during a conversation with a DM and they did not not correct me or say you can’t do that.
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- LL26
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22 hours 36 minutes ago #303106 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic PIP Mobility - 1. Planning and Following Journeys
Hi Mark,
Descriptor points are awarded depending on the level of your disability. However DWP sometimes do not apply the law correctly. Provided that you fulfil the descriptor requirements for the majority of days, then even if you have a better day and can do a bit more, or alternatively if you push through pain, anxiety breathlessness etc this should not preclude the award of points at the appropriate level.
LL26
Descriptor points are awarded depending on the level of your disability. However DWP sometimes do not apply the law correctly. Provided that you fulfil the descriptor requirements for the majority of days, then even if you have a better day and can do a bit more, or alternatively if you push through pain, anxiety breathlessness etc this should not preclude the award of points at the appropriate level.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
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